Prepar3D v2.0 - Details and Discussion (Out Nov. 25th)

[ak416]

Right, I'm not arguing that they should change their stance. What they decide to do is their choice, and whether we choose to support them is ours. What worries me though is what this means for developers and the flight sim community in general. Everyone wants a new sim, I think we're all growing tired of the issues and limitations that plague FSX, and we're desperately seeking for a replacement, and P3D can fill that hole. However I suspect that we may be expecting too much P3D and in the long run, we'll be left disappointed. With all the good looking screenshots and new features Ive been posting about, I thought it was important to bring up some of the problems we'll be facing with P3D, this being the one that has concerned me the most.


Microsoft Flight is a shining example of what happens to a product like a flight simulator when support goes out the window. FSX is alive today because of 3rd party developers, people like you and me who have a passion for their hobby. Not because of Microsoft, not because of Lockheed Martin, not because of Laminar Research. Here is a quote from PMDG developer "rsrandazzo".

After my discussion with John Nicol at Lockheed Martin, I feel that I have a very clear picture of what LMCorp has planned for Prepar3d, and equally importantly, *what they do NOT have planned.*From PMDG's perspective, Prepar3d is not going to be a platform into which we push our retail product line. There will never be a consumer version of P3D, and as such it is not reasonable or feasible for us to expect the major market to exist on P3D beyond a small set of folks who don't mind the niche nature and the price tag.Now- that being said- there are some very serious licensing questions that come up when folks start talking about using our existing retail product line within Prepar3d. These are issues that we are going to be working with Lockheed Martin and the Prepar3d platform to resolve- as there is a significant amount of unwanted legal liability placed on our shoulders if an airline or airline employed pilot decides to place one of our retail products into that platform and use it for any purpose. Our legal counsel has weighed in on this topic already- and I anticipate that we are going to be updating our EULA to prohibit the use of our products within the Prepar3d platform

I just think its important for everyone to know where developers stand on the new product, as they are the people making the products that we really love. I should have expanded on that in my original post

[ROBERT DUNN 2]

I think we will just have to wait and see what v2 is like before we decide to support it or not. If its <$60 and has stable multiplayer I'm all for it.

May I seek your collective permission to explore P3Dv2 multiplayer for a minimum of one month commencing on it's release date of 25 November? Initially I propose to put up a public P3Dv2 multiplayer host at my residence on the date of it's release. I will not propose a support vote from our general membership until I know what I can provide, how I might be able to configure such P3Dv2 host to not unduly interfere with our current FSX-FSOpen host logistics and how much interest and hardware capabilities to run P3Dv2 client side exists both within our current community and in the greater flight simming world.

I have posted my intentions on FSX Beyond Gamespy and FSOpen forum here:

http://www.fsxbeyondgamespy.com/FSXB...=53&p=165#p165

http://www.fsopen.co.uk/forum/posts/...?threadid=3255

I have NOT posted anything on Lockheed Martin's Prepar3D forum and I will not post there until I know more about the platform's multiplayer characteristics and have had two weeks of hosting experience with P3Dv2 multiplayer.

I will be in Henderson, Nevada from Sunday, 24 November 'til Saturday, 30 November. I will transfer the FSOpen license from Mulder server to Henderson server, IP 70.180.222.57 after midnight tonight, 21 November. I will leave the FSOpen licence and FSX host on Henderson server for three weeks, until shortly before Boston Virtual's cross community flight on 14 December. During those three weeks, I will maintain an experimental public P3Dv2 multiplayer host on BigBox, Windows 8.1 OS, IP 71.231.12.143 as a private experiment, not associated with msFLIGHTS.net's good name. Upon the eve of BVA's cross community flight, BigBox will revert to Windows 7 OS configuration as an FSX-FSOpen host under our name and FSOpen license just in case BigBox may be needed to back up any unforeseen technical difficulties BVA may have. BVA has stated their intention to exceed the 99 user limit hard coded into FSX.

I will "rent" and instal one month's worth of LM P3Dv2 developer's licence associated with BigBox host via TeamViewer on it's date of release (Monday). I will immediately open a public host session on BigBox with our normal FSX host configuration parameters except... static weather THEME is all P3Dv2 currently supports (no Jeppesen connection). There is a 63 pilot multiplayer limit, down from FSX's 99 limit. If msFLIGHTS.net endorses a P3Dv2 host, I will purchase a permanent $ 60 academic license for BigBox, Windows 8.1 OS after the expiration of the initial month long developer's license. On release day I will purchase a $ 60 P3Dv2 academic license for my client computer (ASUS) regardless of my continuation as a P3Dv2 multiplayer host. I will be transporting ASUS to Henderson and connecting it as client to Henderson's internet.

P3Dv2 hosting via IP direct connect works, is stable (at least host side) and is similar to FSX multiplayer connection. Just trust me on this point.

There is much more information, questions, proposals, discussion and debate that I will pursue AFTER Monday's release and host side installation. For now, tho, what is your collective opinions and counsel?

[Kalo]

Bob it's completely fine with me to test P3D out in multiplayer...in fact I encourage it. Voting to support P3D is not really the same situation as voting to support other games like DCS or World of Warplanes because P3D is pretty much FSX version 2.

If it really does look and run better then FSX and if it warrants the $60 price tag I would see no reason not to support it. If it meets these criteria I would definitely be hosting my flights in P3D. The 60 player limit is not a big deal either in my opinion......99.9% of the time we would not reach that limit.

p.s. And I forgot another important criteria which AK brought up.....that is a majority of 3rd party aircraft would have to work in P3D. It would not be worth the upgrade imo if we could not fly nice 3rd party planes that we got use to in FSX.

[ROBERT DUNN 2]

Thanks, Kalo. Thanks a lot. Maybe I should poll whether msFLIGHTS.net wants to conduct it's P3Dv2 experimentation under our community brand? My problem is, until we go live with multiplayer for a while, I don't know what I don't know to know. (Courtesy Donald Rumsfeld) I'm going to experiment with P3Dv2 regardless, at least for a month. I would sure like any embarrassment in that effort to be associated solely with me and not the community. I'll take your counsel about this being FS11 and not DCS at face value and rethink this experimental host branding thru once more. Maybe I'll discuss it between airports during Lazer's cargo flight tonight.

Again, the hardware requirements versus the perceived performance benefits will turn out to be the crucial question to our community who flies all sorts of hardware configurations. Concurrency in group flight is close on that hardware question's heels in importance. Many but not all third party stuff either is now or will be made compatible with P3Dv2. The big question there is are we gonna have to pay for a P3D version of that addon we already own for FSX AGAIN? Full price? Minimal upgrade fee? Considerable upgrade recharge? Will the addon license cover both FSX and P3Dv2 simultaneously? All known unknowns.

[Waterman981]

It's out! Downloading now!

I also saw PMDG finally caved and will be releasing/licensing for P3D.

[Waterman981]

Here's what PMDG said:
http://forum.avsim.net/topic/426978-...dated-25nov13/

Captains,

This thread will provide you with factual information related to PMDG's efforts to release products compatible with the Lockheed Martin Prepar3d (P3d) platform.

This thread will be updated from time-to-time as more information becomes available.

General Status:
============

PMDG are planning release of the following products for use with the Lockheed Martin Prepar3d platform:

PMDG 747-400v2.0 for P3D
PMDG 777 Series for P3D
PMDG 737NGX Series for P3D

Release of the PMDG BAe JS4100 for P3D and new products being developed under the PMDG Classics product line are also under consideration for release as P3D titles.

PMDG does not intend to release any of our legacy products such as the PMDG MD-11 or PMDG 747-400X into the P3D platform.

Products that enter development following the PMDG 747-400 v2.0 will be considered on a case-by-case basis depending upon their marketability on the P3D platform.


Licensing and Use:
===============

Unlike products developed on the Microsoft Flight Simulator X (FSX) platform, products on the P3D platform will be offered with a range of licensing options. These options will initially include only a General Study, Education/Academic-STEM and Familiarization licensing model but will eventually expand to include licensing models to cover training, classroom training and training center/airline site license versions.

Customer Licensing for General and Personal Training licenses will be handled directly through PMDG's current eCommerce portal. All other licensing options will be handled on customer-specific non-public portals.

Costs for licensing of P3D based products will vary based upon the license model chosen and the desired use. This will enable PMDG customers to choose a range of cost options based upon their needs and license requirements, from Home Entertainment (using FSX) up through PMDG Certified Training Solutions customized for specific airline customers.


TRAINING CENTER & AIRLINE CUSTOMIZATION:
=======================================

Training Centers and Airline customers will be able to purchase a general version of a PMDG product for P3D, or alternately PMDG can create a private version that tailors the aircraft equipment options to match the customer fleet. This version can be made available only to designated crew members through a private portal. (Please contact us directly via our site for more information on customization.)

Note: Training enabled licenses depend upon certification from Boeing and licensing by same. This product line is not yet available.


ETA:
====

Currently, there are no PMDG products licensed for use with the Lockheed Martin Prepar3d platform.

We do not have a firm ETA for release of PMDG's pending line of P3D products, but we anticipate having the contractual issues resolved in time for a 1Q14 initial release. (See: HURDLES, below.)

We currently anticipate that the PMDG 777-200LR/F will be the first product released for use with P3D. All other PMDG products for P3D will follow later.


HURDLES:
========

PMDG are currently working with our licensing partners to expand and clarify scope restrictions under our current license agreements that prevent us from releasing products for the P3D platform. These conversations have been ongoing since approximately July, and we do not have an ETA for their successful conclusion but it is anticipated that we will have an agreement in principle before the end of 2013.


PRICING:
=======

Pricing for PMDG's new line of P3D products will vary depending upon license type and intended use. Airline customers are encouraged to contact PMDG directly in order that we can effectively recommend a solution to minimize direct and recurring costs.

[ROBERT DUNN 2]

IP 71.231.12.143 is now configured as a Prepar3D version 2 multiplayer training, experimentation and prototyping configuration. Please attempt to multiplayer join and please report your P3Dv2 multiplayer connection and stability experiences in this thread. Remember that P3Dv2 multiplayer is joined from "Flights" menu in-game, quite unlike FSX.

[ak416]

Awesome, I am jealous! Hopefully I'll be able to pick this up before Christmas so I can spend the break flying!

[Josh]

Was able to log in/on no problem. Will report back after setting up later today. Real world events come first today. :upset:

[Mulderpilot13]

Awesome, I am jealous! Hopefully I'll be able to pick this up before Christmas so I can spend the break flying!

I am jealous as well! I plan to do the same thing as ak.

[ROBERT DUNN 2]

Thanks, pilots. I will open this P3Dv2 host server up to the wider simming world by late tonight PST if we encounter no multiplayer problems between now and then. Right now, only you and I know about it's multiplayer existence. Remember Lockheed Martin documents their 60 day refund policy in version 2 which may apply if you aren't happy with it or if it won't install or run on your machine's GPU here:

http://www.prepar3d.com/support/refundpolicy/

If you want to create some scenery, or repaint an aircraft you may qualify for the $10 per month developers license payable one month at a time.

[Kalo]

So to people that have Prepare3d running....how does it look? Does it look noticeably better then FSX? Are your frame-rates better?

Also did prepare3d rework all of the default scenery to make it look better....or is it using default FSX textures/mesh and whatnot?

[Waterman981]

So to people that have Prepare3d running....how does it look? Does it look noticeably better then FSX? Are your frame-rates better?

Looks pretty good. I didn't do much last night. For me it would draw in sections at a time... runway, buildings, trees, aprons, aircraft. So there is a delay for that. But once it was loaded it didn't see problems. Sitting on the ground with default settings (I do have the bottom recommended video card) I was hitting 28 FPS. It was slow at first, like 10 FPS, but after I disabled my controls so I could set them up in FSUIPC (which doesn't work yet in 2.0 so I'm screwed until that is fixed) it got better. I never did take off so can't comment any more on that.

Also did prepare3d rework all of the default scenery to make it look better....or is it using default FSX textures/mesh and whatnot?

Scenery is basically default FSX. The coloring is different, as was done in 1.x, but they didn't rework textures/mesh/scenery at all for 2.0. They are leaving that up to the 3rd party developers. The big changes are all under the hood.

[ROBERT DUNN 2]

The msFLIGHTS.net Prepar3D version 2 host server at IP 71.231.12.143 has been installed, multiplayer configured, running and stable for 12 hours as of this post timestamp. Several connections have been documented here in this thread because I had requested such feedback. An undetermined number of unknown (to me) multiplayer pilot connections have additionally been made in this 12 hours, apparantly stable and in one case, very lengthy (my client side P3Dv2 multi connection as gamertag "ROBERT DUNN 2 TEST". I have seen no multiplayer connection problems nor do I read of any such difficulties here as of yet. I have not rebooted either software or BigBox computer power reboot since initial installation of P3Dv2 and hosting. I will wait until late tonight to post very limited public announcement of this open multiplayer host of P3Dv2. Late Tuesday night I will post a broader public host availability announcement on forums such as FSOpen, where the FSX multiplayer communities' administrators tend to read, FSX Beyond Gamespy General Discussion forum, Prepar3D.com multiplayer specific forum and more publicly here on msFLIGHTS.net forum threads, yellow banner IP status forum announcement and TeamSpeak host server channel descriptive naming.

The P3dV2 is currently being named with our community brand as "msFLIGHTS.net P3Dv2". No other community brand associations, claims nor implied community endorsement have been made by me as of this post timestamp. I continue to seek counsel and decisions from members and staff here regarding the extent, context and intentions of such possible msFLIGHTS.net P3Dv2 multiplayer association. Some other interested P3Dv2 owner will have to frame such questions, moderate such debate, take such polls and gather a consensus. I find that for the next week, RL precludes me from more actively participating in this community endorsement question.

I continue to seek your general counsel on all things P3Dv2 multi and specifically any P3Dv2 host server suggestions, requirements, requests, reports and ideas. Thank you Waterman for your forum PM with that very advice, immediately implemented here in my FLIGHTS.net forum posting.

[jj2414]

I haven't read too many "raving" reviews about it so far. I was going to download it today but I think I'll wait. Seems like there is some bugs and a lot of settings to configure from the users and LM.

Tired of tweaking and "setting" things up. Damnit MS Flight!......you set the bar too high!

Just purchased an SSD yesterday so I'll probably migrate FSX to it and sit P3D out for now.