What is the path forward for Flight Simulation on msFlights.net.

[Coast]

This thread is intended to collect technical information from our community on the possible future path of FLIGHT SIMULATION here. It is in Tech Chat forum because we are requesting posters to support their entries with references to primary sources which can be verified. This information is intended to form the basis for making intelligent and informed future decisions.

I would suggest if we need to collect unsupported opinions on the possible future path of FLIGHT SIMULATION here, that we start a different thread in another Forum area.

So here is a limited set of ideas to get use started.

1. The potential for using version 2 of Prepar3D as either a replacement for or concurrently with FSX.
http://www.prepar3d.com/latest-news/

2. How to continue to use the existing FSX effectively in future versions of Windows. How long can will we continue to support FSX, and what resources will it take to do it.

3. The pros and cons of replacing FSX with a some yet unknown future flight simulation product.

4. The pros and cons of adding some yet unknown future flight simulation product to run alongside FSX.

5. The problems of supporting different third party addons, both freeware and payware (aircraft, scenery, mesh, etc.).

Example: A2A Cessna 172
SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
The A2A Simulations Accu-Sim C172
Trainer requires the following to run:

▶▶ Requires licensed copy of
Microsoft Flight Simulator X

▶▶ Service Pack 2 (SP2) required

NOTE: while the A2A Accu-Sim C172 Trainer may work
with SP1 or earlier, many of the features may not work
correctly, if at all. We cannot attest to the accuracy of
the flight model or aircraft systems under such conditions,
as it was built using the SP2 SDK. Only Service
Pack 2 is required. The Acceleration expansion pack is
fully supported but is NOT REQUIRED.

OPERATING SYSTEM:
▶▶ Windows XP SP2
▶▶ Windows Vista
▶▶ Windows 7
▶▶ Windows 8

PROCESSOR:
▶▶ 2.0 GHz single core processor (3.0GHz and/or
multiple core processor or better recommended)

HARD DRIVE:
▶▶ 250MB of hard drive space or better

VIDEO CARD:
▶▶ DirectX 9 compliant video card with at least 128
MB video ram (512 MB or more recommended)

OTHER:
▶▶ DirectX 9 hardware compatibility and audio
card with speakers and/or headphones

Source: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...27s_Manual.pdf

6. Investigation into the functionality of Microsoft SimConnect, and how it could be used to enhance the usability of FSX.
Source: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc526983.aspx

I know I left out a bunch of things, but all are encouraged to add to this knowledge base at anytime.

-Coast

ADDED: 10-25-2013 2:15 PM EST
The forum thread for non-technically related posts can br found at the link below.

FORUM LINK: http://msflights.net/forum/showthrea...t-net-OPINIONS

[WarHawK]

I cannot link to something verified, but I know that there is something promising coming out in the next year or so.
Unfortunately I was asked not to elaborate, so that's all that I can say until they make an official announcement.

I'll post here and rekindle this thread with specs and requirements at that time.

[Kalo]

I would definitely consider moving on to v2 of prepare 3d, so long as the entrance fee is not too exorbitant. Since prepare 3d was sold with the conditions to be used for educational purposes only, I am not sure if any limitations will be placed preventing anyone from purchasing it.

"As provided in our End User License Agreement, the Prepar3D application is not to be used, offered, sold or distributed through markets or channels for use as a personal/consumer entertainment product." ( http://www.prepar3d.com/product-over...se-comparison/ )

That being said if we do support prepare 3d it would most likely be in addition to FSX, just as we continue to support Microsoft Flight.

[Waterman981]

Lets not start a EULA battle here... there are enough of them on Lockheed & AVSIM forums already.

Bob asked them on their forums yesterday: http://www.prepar3d.com/forum-5/?min...ewtopic&t=3432

An answer was posted today:

We can't interpret the EULA for you, but it is pretty self explanatory. If you're using it for learning, simulation, training, those are acceptable uses. If you're using it for personal entertainment, that is not an acceptable use. Thanks for the interested and support of Prepar3D!

Also previously posted by LM: http://www.prepar3d.com/forum-5/?min...topic&t=3199.0

Lockheed Martin is not an entertainment company, we do not sell products, including Prepar3D for entertainment. We are a simulation and training company, we license Prepar3D for training and simulation. If you're a student you can get an academic discount. Anyone can buy and train or learn with Prepar3D, or join the development network and use the free SDK to develop for Prepar3D.

So everyone will have to figure out on their own if they are covered under the EULA. It's not our job to determine if someone is covered under it, and as we see above Lockheed Martin isn't going to interperet it for us either. Our younger members have it easiest as all kids in school down to kindergarten, have it easily spelled out and get a discounted version. I continue to learn new skills/procedures in FSX and can't wait to be able to learn more with Prepar3d.

And I agree with Kalo. Resources permitting I think it should be in addition to FSX. Those who just want entertainment will be sticking with FSX, while others will be pursuing the offerings of P3D. We may need to raise some new server funds, including the host license cost. Everyone remember to click the MSFlights button when shopping on Amazon! (Especially with Christmas coming!)

[Boomer]

"We can't interpret the EULA for you, but it is pretty self explanatory. If you're using it for learning, simulation, training, those are acceptable uses. If you're using it for personal entertainment, that is not an acceptable use. Thanks for the interested and support of Prepar3D! "

Train on it, but don't crack a smile or have any fun doing it!! We'll find you!!

[Waterman981]

2. How to continue to use the existing FSX effectively in future versions of Windows. How long can will we continue to support FSX, and what resources will it take to do it.

We do have plenty of time as far as Windows... http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/w...ucts/lifecycle

Windows 7 will continue to receive security patches until January 14, 2020
Windows 8 will continue to receive security patches until January 10, 2023

So just over 6 years with Win 7 (I default to that as Bob has been having trouble with the host on 8.1).

[HawgDawg4life]

Geez, I vaguely remember a few months back, discussing other platforms and that being shot down.

[Flyingdreamz]

I am going to a conference in D.C. Monday and Tuesday next week, from what I have heard Lockheed will be there with a Prepar3D rep. I am going to talk to him about this. From what I have heard from others outside the simulations community is that Prepar3D sold to students or consumers will have to meet advisory circular 61-126 which dictates what can and can not be a "PERSONAL COMPUTER-BASED AVIATION TRAINING DEVICES" Xplanes also does this with there pro version. To me this would make sense because they clearly don't want general consumers using this as a product.

That being said, I hope I am wrong.

[Waterman981]

I am going to a conference in D.C. Monday and Tuesday next week, from what I have heard Lockheed will be there with a Prepar3D rep. I am going to talk to him about this. From what I have heard from others outside the simulations community is that Prepar3D sold to students or consumers will have to meet advisory circular 61-126 which dictates what can and can not be a "PERSONAL COMPUTER-BASED AVIATION TRAINING DEVICES" Xplanes also does this with there pro version. To me this would make sense because they clearly don't want general consumers using this as a product.

That being said, I hope I am wrong.

Please, don't post rumors, or hearsay in this thread. Like Coast requested, back your stuff up with links. Until LM says anything on the subject, it could be completely false and just causes more FUD.

[ROBERT DUNN 2]

I have been devoting what time I can to my own education and an investigation on a host server configuration/network that would support Lockheed Prepar3D multiplayer able to fly in the same virtual airspace as a separate but "SimConnected" FSX multiplayer host server. There are of course communities that have established, debugged and proven these configurations. One of these is the newly renamed TBFSS.co.uk community (aka The Big Flight Sim Site) here:

http://tbfss.co.uk/

The shortcoming of this current FSHost-integrated FSX combination is the requirment of our members needing to install and configure a client side software for the FSHost side. The TBFSS website explains this configuration pretty clearly and I here paraphrase that community's host-server structure without their expressed permission:

That community hosts both a normal 24/7 FSX host server where no extra software is needed to join in and also a separate nonconcurrent FSHost Server which requires the download of the FSHost client software, found here:

http://www.chocolatesoftware.com/fshost/

They run a FSX host server. That is the one FSX pilots use to connect to a multiplayer session without installing FSHost client software.

By also running a FSHost server they provides a way for those pilots running either version 1.4 or 2 of Pepar3D or are still using Microsoft FS2004 to also join in with those using FSX.

The servers are not connected in anyway, so if you have FSX and you login to the FSX-FSOpen host server without the FSHost client, you will only see other FSX-FSOpen pilots.

Similarly if you start your FSX in freeflight mode and run the FSHost client separately, you will only see people using this community's FSHost Server and you will not see pilots in the FSX-FSOpen host server.

It is possible to log into and use BOTH servers at the same time in order to see pilots in both types of multiplayer session but if other pilots are only using one of the servers, those pilots will not see all of the multiplayer air traffic that you do when you are logged in to both.

I intend to contribute to this technical planning/thinktank thread with those investigations and posts to other forums I have been doing invoking the community's name. I am motivated because, as the FSX-FSOpen host server custodian, I feel a need to stay on top of future flight sim developments so closely related to the FSX multiplayer centric activities we have here.

I know this post is half baked. This post has sat, partially completed in my notes ever since Coast's OP. Server TeamSpeak and other forum busyness have taken priority and I've been community and RL busy of late. I'll post in opinions section of this P3Dv2 topic but not now.

A cut and paste from TBFSS website, paraphrased, follows:
[BEGIN PARAPHRASED QUOTE]
24/7 FSX Server
To join a TBFSS Flight Sim Server is easy.
We host both a normal 24/7 FSX Server where no extra software is needed to join in.
And also an FS Host Server which requires the download of the FS Host Client software.

http://www.chocolatesoftware.com/fshost/

Why do we run both servers?
We run the FSX Server as this is the one most FSX players use to connect to a multiplayer session without downloading anything extra.
By also running the FS Host Server this provides a way for those people who have switched to Pepar3d or are still using FS2004 to also join in with those still using FSX.
The servers are not connected in anyway, so if you have FSX and you login to the FSX server without the FS Host Client you will only see other FSX users.
Similarly if you start your FSX in freeflight mode and run the FS Host Client you will only see people using the FS Host Server.
Click the links below for details on how to connect to both servers.
It is possible to use both servers at the same time, but if your mate is only using one of the servers he/she will not see all of the traffic that you do.

How to connect to the TBFSS FSX SERVER!
How to connect to the TBFSS FS HOST SERVER!
How to connect to the Teamspeak 2 Server
[EOF]

[Coast]

Thanks for that detailed description of the different ways to connect to multiplayer sessions on FSX and/or Prepar3D. I will read and probably re-read it until I fully understand it. I also will look into the link you posted.

-Coast

PS: I never even thought about using the QUOTE thing on the original post, i.e., its the post up there ahead of this one!

[jj2414]

"We can't interpret the EULA for you, but it is pretty self explanatory. If you're using it for learning, simulation, training, those are acceptable uses. If you're using it for personal entertainment, that is not an acceptable use. Thanks for the interested and support of Prepar3D! "

Train on it, but don't crack a smile or have any fun doing it!! We'll find you!!

Precisely! All this other talk about limitations is pure hogwash. Pay the fee download and enjoy.

Orbx wouldn't be spending time and money to make sure all their sceneries are compatible with 2.0 if it was limited to specific users.

[jj2414]

I am going to a conference in D.C. Monday and Tuesday next week, from what I have heard Lockheed will be there with a Prepar3D rep. I am going to talk to him about this. From what I have heard from others outside the simulations community is that Prepar3D sold to students or consumers will have to meet advisory circular 61-126 which dictates what can and can not be a "PERSONAL COMPUTER-BASED AVIATION TRAINING DEVICES" Xplanes also does this with there pro version. To me this would make sense because they clearly don't want general consumers using this as a product.

That being said, I hope I am wrong.

[ROBERT DUNN 2]

Thanks for that detailed description of the different ways to connect to multiplayer sessions on FSX and/or Prepar3D. I will read and probably re-read it until I fully understand it. I also will look into the link you posted.

-Coast

PS: I never even thought about using the QUOTE thing on the original post, i.e., its the post up there ahead of this one!

Coast, my post was not well organized at all and for that I apologized. It's been busy and I was WAY late in getting anything about multiplayer hosting in the environment of both FSX and P3Dv2 up. I'll continue to research, prototype, experiment and document as the days go by. My personal problem is that for this subject, I have the luxury of some time to properly work on it. On all the other stuff going on in our community that bears my attention, I am playing catch-up and I'm becoming "late to the party" on several administrative level subjects. This P3Dv2 investigation, 'specially multiplayer, has my interest and enthusiasm, tho. The other community stuff needs to supersede it tho because of it's demand for timeliness.

[Coast]

Coast, my post was not well organized at all and for that I apologized. It's been busy and I was WAY late in getting anything about multiplayer hosting in the environment of both FSX and P3Dv2 up. I'll continue to research, prototype, experiment and document as the days go by. My personal problem is that for this subject, I have the luxury of some time to properly work on it. On all the other stuff going on in our community that bears my attention, I am playing catch-up and I'm becoming "late to the party" on several administrative level subjects. This P3Dv2 investigation, 'specially multiplayer, has my interest and enthusiasm, tho. The other community stuff needs to supersede it tho because of it's demand for timeliness.

I understand and appreciate all the hard work you have done and continue to do daily for msFlights.net. When we began this thread, I thought it going to be a longer term effort where we would have the luxury of time to work on it as a team. You are doing just that, so don't worry and keep your valuable insights coming.

-Coast